UNEDITED REALTIME CAPTIONING

BY AMERICAPTION, INC.

SENATORIAL DEBATE, OCTOBER 18, 2004

>> Our regularly scheduled programming will not be shown in

order to bring you the following special presentation.

After decades in politics, Florida Senator Bob Graham is

retiring, and the race to replace him in the U.S. Senate is

one of the most-watched political showdowns this year.

Tonight, we hear from democrat Betty Castor and republican

Mel Martinez, the two candidates vying for your vote on

November 2nd.

Now, a special Newschannel 8 Tampa Tribune voice of the

voter presentation.

Decision 2004.

The Florida Senatorial Debate.

>> Good evening, everyone.

I'm Keith Cate.

>> I'm Gayle Sierens.

Thank you for joining us for this statewide Senate debate

between democrat Betty Castor and republican Mel Martinez.

>> The U.S. Senate now has 51 republicans, 48 democrats and

one independent.

A shift of just two seats will change the majority.

A new Mason Dixon poll shows the Castor-Martinez race is a

real horse race.

It's a dead heat, in fact, with 45% each supporting Martinez

and Castor still 9% undecided.

>> Tonight's hour-long debate comes to you live from studio

B here at the news center.

Here are the rules, each candidate has a minute and a half

to respond to a question.

Candidates then have one minute to offer a rebuttal,

60-second follow-ups will come at the moderator's

discretion.

>> Let's join Tim Russert now, NBC News Washington Bureau

Chief and host of "Meet the Press" who will moderate

tonight's debate.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Good evening and welcome to the Florida

senatorial debate live from WFLA TV in Tampa.

Tonight's debate is being carried on nine Florida NBC

affiliates covering every market in the state.

For the next hour, we will be questioning democrat Betty

Castor, the former state education commissioner,

and her republican opponent, Mel Martinez,

the former secretary of housing and urban development.

Ms. Castor, Mr. Martinez, welcome both.

By flip of a coin on Friday, it was determined that

Ms. Castor receives the first question.

One person who has played a dominant role in this campaign

is not here tonight.

His name is Sami Al-Arian.

I'd like to try to put this issue into some context by first

playing an ad that Mr. Martinez is running about you and

your campaign.

Let's watch.

(Advertisement)

>> What is Islamic Jihad?

A murderous band of terrorists who hate America.

Incredibly, under Betty Castor's weak leadership, Islamic

Jihad used her university as cover.

It wasn't one terrorist. It was a cell.

Betty Castor was warned but refused to fire a single one.

And defended them under academic freedom.

Freedom to plot terrorism.

That's the same Betty Castor who called America the bully of

the world.

>> I'm Mel Martinez and I approve this message.

(End of advertisement)

>>TIM RUSSERT: Ms. Castor what would you say to Mr. Martinez

about that commercial?

>>BETTY CASTOR: Well, Mr. Martinez has spent several million

dollars on ads that depict me and the situation at the

University of South Florida

When I was the president.

I think they are unfair.

I think they are dishonest, and I think they are

hypocritical.

I became president of the university in '94, and I inherited

a tenured professor.

His name was Sami Al-Arian.

When news reports first surfaced about possible activities

of Mr. Al-Arian, I went to the FBI.

I worked with the FBI.

I am the person that shut down the think tank.

I ensured the safety of the campus, and I ultimately put him

on administrative leave or suspension or whatever you would

have it.

I am the only person that took action, no one else was

there.

But I worked continuously.

Now, five years later, five years later, while Mr. Martinez

was a leader of the Governor Bush campaign in Florida,

Governor Bush actually made an appearance with Sami Al-Arian

at the Strawberry Festival in Plant City.

And three months prior to 9/11, Mr. Al-Arian was invited to

the White House.

Now, something is wrong with intelligence.

Something was wrong with intelligence that there was not an

indictment for seven years after this situation first arose.

I have experience having dealt with this.

I know the issue.

The Patriot Act and the fact that those law enforcement

agencies now are forced to work together is a good thing.

But no one should ever be placed in the position that the

university was placed in during this period.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Martinez, before you offer your rebuttal,

I would like to show you a commercial that Ms. Castor's

campaign is running about you on the same subject.

Let's watch.

(Advertisement)

>> I'm Betty Castor, and I approve this message.

>> Hypocritical attacks by Mel Martinez can't hide his

record.

As chair of George Bush's Florida campaign, Martinez allowed

suspected terrorist Sami Al-Arian to campaign with Bush

years after Al-Arian was suspended by Betty Castor.

Martinez said it was irrelevant that Bush campaigned with a

suspected terrorist and when Al-Arian attended a White House

meeting, Martinez said it made no difference.

Mel Martinez, can we believe anything he says?

(End of advertisement)

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Martinez, what would you say to

Ms. Castor about that ad?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Let me thank you first for coming to Florida

and doing the debate.

I want to thank WFLA and all the NBC affiliates and most of

all the Florida voters who are watching tonight.

It's an important debate.

I would say, first of all, that this was an issue introduced

into the campaign by Ms. Castor who suggested that she had,

in fact, suspended this gentleman when she, in fact, had

not.

She put him on administrative leave, paid vacation, if you

will, and then reinstated him a couple of years later.

Fact of the matter is, what we have here is a situation of

not just one person, but a terrorist cell operating out of

the University of South Florida.

One of these people was a professor there for two terms, and

the next job, the next place on his resumé is as the head of

Islamic Jihad in Damascus, Syria.

This is not just a group of people planning garden parties.

These were people who were actually utilizing one of our

fine state universities as a cover of a terrorist front for

several years under her watch.

I thought it was a failure of leadership.

And, frankly, I think it's almost humorous to suggest I've

been to the Strawberry Festival.

Tim, maybe you haven't.

Maybe next year you should come.

The fact of the matter is this is a big festival and the

fact that this gentleman happened to coincide with then

candidate Governor Bush is something I know nothing about.

Her ad even suggests that I somehow allowed it to occur,

like I somehow cleared him for this to happen.

Never met the man, never saw him in my life.

It is a smoke screen to try to divert responsibility from

her responsibility to have acted forcefully at the

University of South Florida.

She, in fact, what she did, not only act, but she also

suggested that she wasn't going to be an arbitor of what was

good and what was evil.

That is a problem, under academic freedom, I understand

there should be freedom but there is no freedom to plot

terrorism and finance and plot terrorism.

>>TIM RUSSERT: I would like to ask you each follow-ups on

this because it's that important.

Ms. Castor, I want to refer you to the Tampa Tribune, back

in November of 1994, it said a University of South Florida

professor, an Islamic leader is being identified in the new

public television documentary as a key supporter of one of

the Middle East most notorious terrorist groups.

May 28th, '95, on the University of South Florida campus,

Sami Al-Arian an award-winning professor, young engineering

professor in his off-hours he presides over a nonprofit

organization that helps raise money in the name of two

groups that claim responsibility for bombings that have

killed hundreds in Israel and around the world.

He has invited suspected terrorist leaders to speak on

campus.

Your own campus newspaper, "The Oracle" said that SHALA left

your payroll to go to Syria to take over as head of the

Islamic Jihad.

Weren't those sufficient warning signals to you that

something very serious and very dangerous was going on your

campus?

>>BETTY CASTOR: The first that I knew about this, I reached

out to the FBI.

I could not preempt an investigation by the FBI.

I worked with law enforcement.

We ensured the safety of the campus.

Ultimately Mr. Al-Arian was suspended.

Mr. SHALA, no one knew who he was until after he left the

university.

In fact, the very person who appeared in one of

Mr. Martinez's ads, Mr. William West, was the immigration

officer that interviewed him as he was leaving the country.

And he said there was never any evidence that he was acting

unlawfully at the university or anywhere else.

So the question is, again, how could a university president

have known of these situations when others in law

enforcement did not?

Now, again, I raised the question of how five years later,

seven years later could Mr. Al-Arian be invited to the White

House?

I've been to the White House.

You've been to the White House.

Security is pretty high there.

After he is under suspicion for all of these years, how

could he get this kind of an invitation?

I think that's a legitimate question for Mr. Martinez to

answer.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Martinez, following that up, if Sami

Al-Arian was such a dangerous suspect, such a terrorist,

such a leader of a cell that was detrimental to the people

of Florida and the United States, then why did the following

occur: He was allowed to take a photograph with the

President of the United States.

Secondly, the president called his son "big dude," a

nickname, a name of familiarity.

Three, the president asked the Secret Service to apologize

to big dude for the way he was treated at the White House.

Four, Mr. Al-Arian was invited as a guest to the White

House.

Five, Jeb Bush, the governor, gave $350,000 in grant money

to Mr. Al-Arian's concerns.

If all that happened after he had been placed on leave by

Ms. Castor, what is the relevance of this entire discussion

about Sami Al-Arian?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: I'll tell you the relevance.

In 1996, Ms. Castor was presented with an affidavit by Bill

West, the agent in charge of the investigation.

That affidavit detailed all of the things that Ms. Castor

said she had no opportunity to know.

In fact, Tim, there was a PBS award-winning documentary

which detailed all of this out which gave clear indication

of the fact that there was something amidst in the middle of

the University of South Florida and the fact is that this

went on for several years, even after Mr. Al-Arian was

suspended.

Now, Tim, you know very well, I was not in charge of the

president's security of the White House or who gets into the

White House and who doesn't.

The fact is, it has nothing to do with me or my campaign.

Those are actions of others for which the secret service

should answer.

The fact of the matter is that the cover of a university

professorship allows people to do different things.

One thing I think ought to be very clear is Ms. Castor

suspended this man, actually didn't suspend him.

Put him on administrative leave, but then reinstated him.

He was never removed.

He was reinstated, and then there are the others who are not

tenured professors and who were also under the employ of the

University of South Florida continuing their activities

there.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Al-Arian also said this.

I played a key role in the George Bush campaign in Florida.

We delivered him more than 537 votes within the Muslim

community, which helped him carry Florida.

You were co-chair of that campaign.

He was a very active participant in it.

Again, if he was such a dangerous terrorist why was he

allowed to play a role in the campaign?

Why was he invited to the White House?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Never met the man, Tim.

To suggest that Governor Bush and I as chairs of the Bush

campaign in Florida somehow have some connection to this

gentleman is just silly.

I mean, I've been to the Strawberry Festival.

I saw bunches of people there that I took pictures with.

I have no idea who they are.

This isn't a private photo appointment.

This is show up at the Strawberry Festival, celebrity there,

not the president at the time, but a presidential candidate,

governor of Texas.

And so I just think that to tie Governor Bush and myself to

this and suggest that somehow that relieves Ms. Castor of

the responsibility of leadership that she had at the

University of South Florida, frankly is really to only

misplace responsibility I think.

>>TIM RUSSERT: I received a lot of e-mails and calls about

this from Floridians, Ms. Castor.

And they had their fill of it.

They would like to hear both candidates talk about other

issues which we're going to get to.

You raised this issue first in your television advertising.

Would you pledge -- would you pledge tonight to stop any

advertising about Sami Al-Arian of your own and also the

democratic Senate campaign committee which has an ad on

about the subject calling Mr. Martinez a liar, will you

agree to suspend all advertising on this subject if

Mr. Martinez would do the same?

>>BETTY CASTOR: Well, the first thing I want to do is set

the record straight.

The first ad I had up did not mention Mr. Al-Arian.

It talked about my experience at the university and how

important it is for the law enforcement agencies to work

together.

I heard the president in the second debate talk about the

value of the Patriot Act.

I am very strongly in favor of the provisions of 9/11.

I have learned something because of this very difficult

situation.

But to cast me in the position of not taking strong action

is very misleading.

I took the strongest action available under the rules and

regulations of the State University system.

The laws of Florida, and by the way the constitution of the

United States.

I was the only person.

Now, Mr. Martinez says, originally he said he didn't know

what he would do had he been president of the university.

I was there.

I was reaching out to law enforcement.

I was working with others.

I think we've seen enough of this debate, too.

But I am not going to do anything unless I have a pledge

from Mr. Martinez that he would remove these despicable ads.

>>TIM RUSSERT: I asked you would you remove yours if he did

the same.

>>BETTY CASTOR: Absolutely.

>>TIM RUSSERT: With two weeks to go, would you stop all

negative advertising?

>>BETTY CASTOR: Well, I think negative advertising, truly is

in the eyes of the beholder.

I think it is fair to talk about differences, but, yes, I

would be happy to -- I'd be happy to go out on the issues

with the positive campaign which I have done and which I did

throughout the primary.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Martinez, will you agree tonight to

suspend all advertising about Sami Al-Arian?

You just heard Ms. Castor say she would.

>>MEL MARTINEZ: She has done three ads on this and we've

been responding to those ads.

I would love for her to get on another subject and we can go

forward and have a debate on many issues Floridians are

concerned about.

I assure you, Tim, we were quite surprised when in fact

Ms. Castor's first ads suggested that she had seen a

terrorist situation and she had acted and, in fact, she had

suspended the terrorists.

Continues to use the word "suspended."

That's inaccurate.

Administrative leave and reinstatement is what occurred.

Beyond that, I believe that Ms. Castor has yet to run a

positive ad.

We've had a number of positive ads.

We have one now I'm proud of about our hurricane plans for

the people of Florida as we look to the future.

That is the kind of stuff that Floridians want to see.

>>TIM RUSSERT: If she stops her advertising on Sami

Al-Arian, you would do the same?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: I'll tell you tonight that I'm not going to

make the strategy for my campaign here tonight under these

lights.

That is something for us to talk about, but I would hope she

wouldn't continue them.

If she doesn't, there's a very good likelihood we'll

certainly get on other subjects.

>>TIM RUSSERT: The concern that existed in the ads and also

editorial boards across the state the way you ended your

primary campaign against Bill McCollum.

This was distributed statewide, paid for by your campaign

including this phrase, Congressman McCollum is the new

darling of the homosexual extremist, which you apologized to

Congressman McCollum about.

A columnist for your hometown Orlando Sentinel wrote that

Mr. Nice guy has become Mel vicious.

Is there a way for you to stop and suspend negative

advertising tonight which can reassure Floridians that you

can bring this campaign back to an honorable discussion and

not just respond to negative ads if they are directed at you

but both agree tonight to stop it?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Tim, there are people like EMILY's list who

haven't been advertising with millions of dollars in this

state.

They support Mrs. Castor and have supported her with more

dollars, I understand, than any other candidate in the

19-year history of EMILY's list.

The barrage of negative attacks that I've been under are

significant.

And I want to tell you, first and foremost, I would love for

us to go on positive ads.

I have, as I say, one on hurricane. Our very first ad was

about my life story, the things I've done in life as most of

my TV ads frankly were in the primary.

The fact of the matter is we should move to positive

messages.

We should talk about what our vision is.

What our optimism is for Florida.

What do we plan to do?

And all of that really cannot be accomplished with a barrage

of negativity you said I've been called a liar in ads,

that's not the worst of it.

I mean, incredible attacks that, frankly, do not enlighten

people.

They don't bring information to the fore.

They are just negativity.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Let me go to our second question for

Mr. Martinez.

The man you would like to replace, Senator Bob Graham, voted

against authorizing the war in Iraq.

He said there were other nations that posed more imminent

threat but he also raised the issues of the ports and the

security of the ports, that we have coming into our country

20,000 cargo containers every day, 4,000 here in Florida

alone, and that the crisis is urgent and real.

Now that we have not found any weapons of mass destruction

in Iraq, would it have been wiser to spend the $120 billion

we're using in Iraq to harden our ports and our borders in

order to guarantee safety for the American people?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: No, Tim, I think we've got to do both.

We have to do better at home port security.

It's a big issue in Florida.

We have a lot of ports.

And I respect Senator Graham's position against the war.

I think it was the wrong position, but one has to respect

that clear-cut position.

Far different from others who would have suggested that we

needed to have a mandate from the U.N. or some other

permission slip along the way.

The fact is that I support the decision to have gone to war

in Iraq.

I think it was the right decision whether or not Saddam

Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, he certainly had

the intent and had been supporting terrorists.

So what we had was a confluence of a man, horrible dictator

who had been involved in terrorism, who harbored terrorists

in the country and who even financed terrorists in Israel

after -- or the families of terrorists in Israel.

We know he was involved in terror.

We know he ran with that network of people and we know he

had weapons of mass destruction, sought to have them again

in the future.

I want to tell you, one of the concerns not often talked

about but I remember secretary Rumsfeld discussing it at our

cabinet meetings was the fact that the no-fly zone for 11

years enforced by Britain and the United States and almost

daily, they would fire upon our Flyers.

Our men and women in uniform flying those aircraft were

risking their lives.

How long could we go on with the sanctions that were

crumbling because we know corrupt oil for food program and

in addition to that, the fact that we know very well that

this man at some point was going to get the weapons of mass

destruction.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Ms. Castor, I wish you would rebut.

And in it, if you would talk about as Mr. Martinez pointed

out, your preference that the United Nations offer a

resolution or sanction of our invasion of Iraq and also

address this comment which you made in the campaign, quote,

I don't think we can continue to be the bully of the world.

>>BETTY CASTOR: Well, first, let me say that I think that we

went into Iraq with flawed intelligence.

Having said that, I'm glad that Saddam Hussein is no longer

there.

I think he was truly an evil person.

We need to win this contest.

We need to keep faith with those young men and women who are

fighting for us.

Florida has 22,000 fighting men and women on the ground in

Iraq.

A lot of them reservists and national guards men and women.

And I have a message for them tonight.

We are proud of you.

We're proud of the job that you're doing, and we're going to

keep the faith with you.

I don't think that we have provided enough assistance to

those fighting forces.

I don't believe we have supplied them with enough equipment.

And I think that's becoming -- becoming apparent.

I happen to think that we need to double the size of our

special forces.

And I agree with Senator McCain, we ought to increase the

size of our military.

Because I think our forces are very thin there.

But let me answer the other part of your question.

I started my teaching career in east Africa.

I was there when John Kennedy was assassinated.

I remember my students and villagers coming up and paying

their respects to me and expressing their sorrow.

It was a time when this country was the envy of the world.

I think we've got to continue to fight to get back that high

ground and that respect among other nations.

>>TIM RUSSERT: John Kerry said this is the wrong war at the

wrong time and the wrong place.

Do you agree?

>>BETTY CASTOR: I would not.

I would not say that.

I think we have a lot at risk here.

I think we have a lot at stake.

The Middle East and this part of the world is a powder keg.

We have got to stay there, we have to see elections through

and we have to do everything we can to support our forces.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Martinez, a follow-up, George Bush said

in 2000 he would always have an exit strategy for any war he

brought the United States toward.

Do you believe the president has made any mistakes regarding

Iraq?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Do I get a chance to also rebut her

comments?

>>TIM RUSSERT: This is my follow-up.

>>MEL MARTINEZ: First of all, let me say that I believe that

it was the right decision to go to war.

I still haven't heard clearly whether Ms. Castor would have

supported the decision to go to war or would have waited as

she said before for a mandate from the U.N.

We couldn't disagree more on that kind of opinion.

But let me say I believe one of the things I would have done

differently, I would have found a way to perhaps have kept

some of the Iraqi military to have been available although

that has been a tricky issue.

Tim, I believe anytime you go to war, it is difficult and

there are problems and things go right and things go wrong.

Because, you know, the other guy gets to vote too.

It isn't like they are going to lay their arms down and say,

well, come and get it.

The difficulties that we have encountered was because the

troops we sent in did such a magnificent job and I also

honor the sacrifice, particularly of Floridians who are over

there and who have been there.

But the fact of the matter is, that we're making progress

and we're moving forward in a very positive way.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Before we go and take a break, Mr. Martinez,

if there was a vote today in the Senate to go to war with

Iraq and you knew they did not have weapons of mass

destruction, would you still vote for war?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Yes, I would have.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Ms. Castor?

>>BETTY CASTOR: No.

But I do want to come back to the mandate issue because

Mr. Martinez has been saying that about me and it's not

true.

No, I would not require a mandate from the United Nations.

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Would you have voted for the war?

>>BETTY CASTOR: No, knowing what I know now that there are

no weapons of mass destruction.

>>TIM RUSSERT: We have to take a quick break.

Betty Castor the democrat, Mel Martinez the republican.

We'll be right back after this.

>>TIM RUSSERT: And we're back at our Florida senatorial

debate.

The next question is for Ms. Castor.

Both John Kerry and you have been critical of President Bush

regarding the lack of flu vaccine.

What specifically should have been done differently?

>>BETTY CASTOR: Well, I think we need to have long-term

contracts with the vaccine makers.

That would encourage some of the pharmaceutical companies in

this country.

We have not had long-term contracts.

And I think that has been a real problem.

In addition, I think we ought to have a plan.

I think we ought to have a plan immediately to talk to the

American public.

I stood in a line over the weekend at a grocery store here

where people were lining up in wheelchairs because they were

so concerned.

Now, I'm not sure that there is an easy answer now, but we

could start by identifying vaccine available in Canada and

in Europe and try to reduce the barriers so that we could

move those vaccines in.

It kind of reminds me of the impediments that we have to

bringing in prescription drugs and other effort that the

administration has made to keep out, even prescription drugs

manufactured here.

But I think most of all, what we need now is for our public

health officials to be talking to the American public about

saving the vaccine for our most vulnerable citizens.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Martinez?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: My heart goes out to those people,

particularly so many of our elderly in Florida who are

looking for a flu vaccine and can't find one.

It's a terrible problem and one we have to find a solution

to.

I pledge to work to continue the efforts that are ongoing to

try to create more domestic sources of the vaccine.

We have to do some things beyond just say we're going to

enter into a long-term contract.

The fact of the matter is, that we have liability issues

that have to be resolved.

We cannot just expect vaccine makers to bear the brunt and

the burden of the liability that they may have.

And that's one of the real issues that has to be addressed

as we look for a solution to this very difficult problem.

I mean, Floridians and all Americans, you know, in the

state -- the kind of medical care we expect, we know that

when we need a vaccine we should have it available.

It's too bad that it's not currently.

I'll work hard to make sure it happens.

>>TIM RUSSERT: You have opposed allowing prescription drugs

from Canada coming into the United States.

Would you allow flu vaccine from Canada to come to the U.S.

>>MEL MARTINEZ: I would not only allow that.

You've been looking at Ms. Castor's ad.

I would allow any reimportation of drugs that are safe and

can be done.

I don't have an opposition to that.

The fact of the matter is, it's a very important issue to

our seniors in Florida.

If our seniors -- let me tell you, I have three moms.

My natural mother and two foster mothers.

They are all now in their 70s and 80s.

These are strong women that I love and respect.

And anything I can do for them so that they can get the

prescription drugs they need as cheaply as they can, I will

do it.

If it means reimportation, so be it.

>>TIM RUSSERT: You disagree with President Bush on that.

>>MEL MARTINEZ: I do indeed.

>>TIM RUSSERT: One last question before I follow up with

you, Ms. Castor.

Would you be in favor of immunity from punitive damages for

pharmaceutical companies that make vaccine?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Yes, I would.

I think we would have to do that in order for them to be

encouraged to do it in Florida or the United States.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Ms. Castor, would you be in favor of immunity

for the pharmaceutical companies from punitive damages for

making vaccines so they are willing to invest in that

market?

>>BETTY CASTOR: In this case, I would, yes.

Let me go back to Mr. Martinez, he's on both side of this

issue.

He said he favored the Medicare drug prescription bill

passed by congress and by the president which banned

reimportation of drugs from Canada.

How can you be for that drug bill and against it at the same

time?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: You know, that's part of this got you game

in politics.

Our seniors in Florida are not interested in politics, what

they are interested in are results.

That bill provided a new prescription drug benefit to our

seniors.

I think that's important.

I thought that that was a good thing.

That reimportation aspect of it is something I would not

have supported had I been in the Senate and when I go it

would be something that we ought to take out of the bill.

We ought to permit reimportation.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Are you in favor of amendment three here on

the ballot in Florida that would cap damages?

>>BETTY CASTOR: No, I am not.

I think that we need to address our health care crisis in a

much broader way.

One thing that I would start with, I think we need to get

rid of frivolous lawsuits.

I very much agree with the three strikes and you are out.

There are a number of states that have taken action already

to require attorneys to get a medical certificate or a

certificate from panels before -- before they can be allowed

to pursue a legitimate case.

I just don't think in this country we can prohibit people

who have a serious injury from getting redress through the

courts.

And I wouldn't want to do anything to jeopardize that.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Martinez, as you well know, you are the

former president of the Florida trial lawyer association.

This is what George Bush, the president, has been going

around the country saying.

I don't think you can be pro-doctor, pro-hospital,

pro-patient and pro-trial lawyer at the same time.

I think you have to choose.

There are too many trial lawyers in the United States

Senate.

Is he talking about you?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Tim, I'm not in charge of who he takes

pictures with at the Plant City Strawberry Festival and I'm

also not in charge of some of the speeches that he writes.

The fact of the matter is, that would not be my choice of

words but I agree with the sentiment.

What he is talking about is the need for us to do tort

reform in the United States so that we can ensure the

availability of doctors, the availability of insurance

affordable for doctors to be able to practice in peace.

>>TIM RUSSERT: He would like to cap damages at $250,000.

You agree?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: No, I would cap them at $500,000 and I would

love to know if Mr. Castor would agree on a cap for damages

for noneconomic damages medical malpractice litigation I'm

against amendment three.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Would you cap it at $500,000 as Mr. Martinez

just said?

>>BETTY CASTOR: No, I wouldn't.

And I think it's very interesting, Mr. Martinez is obviously

with the administration on this, whether it's 500 or 250

thousand.

I'm not in favor of caps for the reasons that I previously

stated, that I think someone has a serious injury, that we

ought to -- they ought to be able to have redress through

the courts.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Martinez, the next question is for you.

As you know, amendment five --

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Do I get a chance to comment or are we done

with that.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Done with that.

Amendment five also on the ballot, raising the minimum wage

from $5.15 to $6.15.

120,000 Floridians make minimum wage or less.

120,000 roughly Floridians make over $200,000.

You are against increasing the minimum wage by a buck but in

favor of giving those Floridians who make over $200,000 a

very substantial tax cut.

Why should someone who makes $200 a week not get an increase

in their salary as opposed to those who make $4,000 a week

get a big tax cut?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Tim, let me tell you, I understand what it's

like to work for minimum wage.

I did it myself.

I put myself through school doing that.

I got an education that way.

I remember helping my parents resettle in this country.

I know what poverty is about.

I know what it's like to have to make do with little or no

money.

You know, providing the family with the things that we

needed.

That was something that it was a family project.

My dad and I both working, trying to make ends meet.

Moving into a position where we were able to buy our first

home in America.

That's a big deal.

Ms. Castor talks about Africa and the years when she was

there and how people were so proud.

And she said America then was the envy of the world.

You know, I think she's wrong.

America continues to be not only the envy of the world but I

believe a beacon of hope in the world.

The reason I believe that the minimum wage increase would be

illusory and frankly would not help people is because a buck

an hour is not going to bring somebody out of poverty.

Minimum wage workers today are entry level jobs.

They are jobs for people who are getting into the workforce.

For those that are head of household and working for a

minimum wage, those people just cannot support a family on

those meager wages, whether or not another dollar was added

to it.

I want to see people on minimum wage be cycling through that

stage of their lives to a better place, to a place where

they can move through education, through training and

retraining, to lives that are going to be prosperous that

are going to be better for them and allow them to live the

American dream like I've been able to live.

I can tell you today that when we used to be the envy of the

world in her shoes, that's when I was coming to America.

But there are people who still are coming to America

clamoring for a minimum wage job and at a time in our state

and economic condition when we're seeking to expand job

growth is the very wrong time to increase the minimum wage.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Ms. Castor, your rebuttal.

>>BETTY CASTOR: I can't believe what I just heard.

Here is someone who builds himself as being a part of the

American dream who doesn't want or who wants to prevent

other Americans from being a part of the American dream.

There are 400,000 people in this state working at minimum

wage.

Many of them are women.

Many of them are Hispanics.

Many of them are people who a few years ago were on welfare.

Today, they are not on welfare.

They are working.

They are in jobs.

Many of them do not have health care.

Who can deny them $40 a week more?

I think it's an embarrassment that we have such a low

minimum wage, and I think it's time that Florida passed a

minimum wage and that we did that for the benefit of all of

the people here.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Another big issue confronting our country and

particularly Florida with more than 3 million people on

Social Security, Mrs. Castor, is Social Security.

There are now 40 million people on Social Security soon to

be 80 million when the baby boom generation retires.

Life expectancy used to be 65.

It's now approaching 80.

How do you absorb twice as many people on these programs for

15 years without increasing the payroll tax or reducing

benefits?

>>BETTY CASTOR: Well, one way that you don't do it is by

privatizing Social Security.

I remember my mother, who was helped after my father passed

away at a very young age.

She still had a young sibling at home, Social Security

helped her then.

She's passed away in the last year, but in the waning years

of her life, she received Social Security checks and it was

one of the high points -- high points of her life.

It was a safety net for her.

There are three million Social Security recipients in this

state.

We cannot afford to put them at risk.

If we privatize, as Mr. Martinez wants to do, you know,

you've been in these interviews before, it will cost us

$2 trillion.

If we privatize, the only thing that will happen is that the

benefits for those already on the system will have to be

reduced.

So we can't do that.

That is not an option.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Martinez, in your rebuttal, if you could

address the privatizing and also a comment The New York

Times quoted the president yesterday saying to a group of

republican fund-raisers, "In January, I will come out strong

for privatizing Social Security."

>>MEL MARTINEZ: First of all, let me say that I am concerned

about the safety and security of all of Florida's seniors.

Again, I have elderly parents that depend on Social Security

and in fact, as I said earlier, I have three of them.

These are my foster mothers who took care of me when I came

here as a child from Cuba and my own mother.

And they depend on Social Security and one thing, I'm

someone who will go to Washington, prepare to defend and

fight for Social Security to make sure that there's no

reduction in their benefits, to make sure that they can

continue in peace to live their retirement years.

This is important to me.

I want to make sure that our seniors know that we have a

bond and a pledge with them.

It is a sacred bond, it is a sacred pledge.

Social Security must be for them into their retirement years

and beyond.

And for those families approaching Social Security

retirement age, they also ought to know that it's going to

be there for them unchanged.

Now, I have a young son-in-law and daughter.

They are just starting in their working lives.

They are in their late 20s.

Why would they not have an opportunity to invest in a

private account that would permit them the opportunity to

also receive a larger return than the 2% that Social

Security provides?

>>TIM RUSSERT: So you would consider privatizing of some --

>>MEL MARTINEZ: For the younger workers.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Would you consider raising the retirement

age?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: No, I would not.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Would you consider privatizing in any way,

shape or form.

>>BETTY CASTOR: no way.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Consider raising the retirement age.

>>BETTY CASTOR: No.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Then how would you solve the problem?

>>BETTY CASTOR: I think we need to go back to a commonsense

approach.

We need a bipartisan commission.

We need a real bipartisan commission.

Not one cherry picked with people already going to come out

with a recommendation.

There is no imminent danger.

There is no immediate problem to Social Security.

But we know there is a date -- a decade or several decades

from now when this will be a critical -- a critical issue.

We have time to address it.

The thing that we cannot afford to do is create any risk at

this time.

We cannot continue to use the Social Security trust fund to

balance the budget.

So let's recognize we'll have a problem in the future.

Let's get the people who are the best thinkers in this

country to sit down and make recommendations.

>>TIM RUSSERT: We have to take another quick break.

Back with more of our debate.

Mel Martinez the republican candidate.

Betty Castor is the democrat.

We'll be right back.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Martinez, you said you would be in favor

of banning all abortions, even in case of rape or incest.

Who would be prosecuted for an abortion if it broke the law?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: I wouldn't look forward to that opportunity.

My hope is that we can convince Americans that we need to

encourage a culture of life.

And I think that is really why kitty and I through our lives

have been so committed to adoption.

Our first child was adopted.

We became convinced there are many wonderful options to the

issue of abortion, including the very wonderful option which

is -- we need to always understand, Tim, that women's issues

also ought to be considered.

The fact that too many women are driven into abortion by

husband, a spouse, a boyfriend, sometimes a parent.

And those people need to have our compassion and our help as

well.

The bottom line is I don't plan on prosecuting anyone.

When I go to the United States Senate, I'm going to be

confirming judges who will go to the courts and the courts

will deal with this issue.

This is not up for a vote by the United States Senate.

>>TIM RUSSERT: If all abortion was banned and constitutional

amendment to end all abortion was passed would a doctor,

would a woman be persecuted?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: No, Tim.

I would never want to see people prosecuted.

>>TIM RUSSERT: So why would they obey the law?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: I think what we need to do is educate people

and encourage a culture of life in this country.

I don't foresee -- what we need to do is minimize the number

of abortions.

We need to end the heinous practice of late-term abortion.

We need to end or allow parents to have a say in their

children's decisions on something as fundamental and

important as that.

We're far from prosecuting people in this country over that

issue.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Ms. Castor, in your rebuttal, if you could

also address EMILY's list giving you $1.3 million and

whether you would have voted for the partial birth abortion

ban that was specifically signed by the president last year?

>>BETTY CASTOR: No, I would not have voted for that ban,

because it did not protect the life and health of the

mother.

I think abortion is a very personal decision.

We have very different -- very different opinions on this.

I think abortion should be rare.

I think it should be safe, and I think it should be legal.

I think choice should be an option for women to make with

their families, with their spouses, with their religious

leaders.

To take the position that choice and abortion should not be

available to a woman who has been the victim of rape or

incest seems to me unconscionable.

And I will fight to protect Roe V. Wade when I go to the

United States Senate.

In addition to that, my opponent in this very extreme, he

even opposes in vitro fertilization which has been an option

for many young couples in this country.

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Absolutely untrue.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Do you oppose in vitro fertilization?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Of course, I don't.

That's a very extreme position, and I don't take that

position at all.

I believe, Tim, it's also interesting to note, Ms. Castor

who views herself as a moderate would not have voted for

that partial birth abortion which had a majority support of

both houses of the congress.

>>TIM RUSSERT: If you are in favor of in vitro

fertilization, would you allow some of those embryonic stem

cells that would be discarded in that process to be used for

research?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: The existing stem cell lines I would, but I

would not open it to others, no, I would not.

That's a decision for the parents of those embryos to make

as to what happens to those embryos, but, no, I would not

use them in the furtherance of that particular research,

which, by the way, I support stem cell research.

Let me be clear about that.

>>TIM RUSSERT: If you are in favor of in vitro fertilization

and there are some embryos that are not used, rather than be

discarded, would you allow them to be used for stem cell

research?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: No, I would not be in favor of the

destruction of embryos for stem cell research.

And I also believe, Tim, as you can have in vitro

fertilization without necessarily having extra embryos that

would be produced as a result of that effort.

>>TIM RUSSERT: I'll give you a chance to rebut.

>>BETTY CASTOR: Well, I, of course, favor embryonic stem

cell research.

There are thousands and thousands of people in this country

who are holding out hope for a cure for diabetes, for

Parkinson's, for Alzheimer's.

And let me tell you another group that I'm very concerned

about.

We have many young men and some women coming home from

fighting this war in Iraq and Afghanistan with spinal cord

injuries.

Stem cell research and particularly embryonic stem cell

research holds out a cure.

And I think we should do everything that we can under the

protocols that are already established in the medical

communities to expand that kind of stem cell research.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Before we take a break, do you support

amendment one, parental notification to the parents of a

child having an abortion?

>>BETTY CASTOR: I do support parental notification,

especially if there is a judicial bypass.

I'm a mother.

I know how I would want my own children to talk to me, and I

think young girls ought to be talking to their parents.

I will not vote for this particular amendment because it is

not clearly spelled out.

>>TIM RUSSERT: A judicial bypass in case it's an abusive

situation.

>>BETTY CASTOR: Well, judicial bypass is very necessary,

especially in cases where parents abuse their own daughters.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Martinez, will you support amendment one?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: I will vote for that amendment.

I'm disappointed Ms. Castor doesn't have the independence

from EMILY's list to support something as basic as the

parental choice of a parent to be involved in that decision

of a minor child.

We're talking about children here having an opportunity for

a parent to be involved in a very important decision.

>>BETTY CASTOR: Don't misstate me.

I do believe in parental notification.

>>MEL MARTINEZ: You wouldn't vote for it.

>>BETTY CASTOR: I want to see some judicial bypass that is

spelled out.

I want it to be clearly spelled out.

It is not in this amendment.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Would you prefer to have a judicial bypass in

abusive situations?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Of course. And I don't believe that's the

issue in this amendment. I believe this amendment would

provide for a judicial bypass.

That's reasonable.

>>TIM RUSSERT: We're going to take another quick break. The

democrat is Betty Castor.

Republican Mel Martinez.

Our debate will continue after this.

>>TIM RUSSERT: And the next question is for Mr. Martinez.

Mr. Martinez, Carlos Lazo was a combat medic serving in

Iraq, came home on a two-week leave.

He wanted to go see his two teenage sons in Cuba.

He was told under President Bush's new policy he could not

go for three years.

You support that policy, why?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Tim, let me tell you, I am someone who knows

the difficulty and the pain of the Cuban family over 43 or

four years of tyranny and dictatorship.

I was separated from my parents at the tender age of 15 I

might add for more than four years.

My brother was 12 at the time when he was separated also for

four years.

I understand because I have family in Cuba today.

I have an 86-year-old aunt that I would love to see and be

with.

But the reason why this is occurring is because of tyranny

and repression and lack of human rights in Cuba today.

The president put forth a very broad-reaching and

broad-ranging policy on Cuba.

It included for the first time a clear commitment by this

country that we would love to see democratic transition.

Not we would love to see, we will work towards a democratic

transition in Cuba so that Cuba can some day soon be free.

And then it put in place several strategies.

Some of them are helping of dissidence, some are helping

nongovernmental organizations, charitable ones as well so we

could continue the flow of information to Cuba as well with

increased TV and radio, but in addition to that, deprive the

regime the resources that it needs to oppress its own people

by denying tourism travel and even excessive amounts of

family travel.

My hope is, frankly that that policy which would require no

travel in three years that by the time the three years are

up, that it may be possible for all Cuban families to be

together, to be united and to be living in freedom.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Ms. Castor?

>>BETTY CASTOR: Well, I think that travel policy is wrong.

Who does it hurt?

It doesn't hurt Fidel Castro.

It hurts families.

I don't think it's humanitarian.

You have families in this country that would like to visit a

loved one on the island of Cuba and they are told, no, now

they can't send remittances to their families to help them

purchase drugs and pharmaceuticals, to help pay some of the

bills.

I think we ought to be expanding the travel policy.

I think we ought to be encouraging travel between our

academic institutions.

I think we ought to be trying to show the Cuban people what

we have to offer here in this great democracy, and that's

the way to help change attitudes.

We're already trading with Cuba, and that's what is

benefitting Fidel Castro.

This new travel policy doesn't hurt him.

It only hurts families.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Let me go back to problem facing our country

and that's the deficit.

$422 billion.

We have money set aside for defense, Social Security,

Medicare, no one wants to touch it, which leaves a minuscule

amount left in order to deal with the budget.

How would you balance the budget?

>>BETTY CASTOR: Well, the first thing is this deficit is

outrageous.

It keeps getting better -- bigger, excuse me, keeps getting

bigger.

It keeps putting our country at risk.

Look, my husband and I have a slew of kids.

We have six children.

They are all married.

Every time I look at those kids and their kids and then the

policies of this administration, which is simply let --

let's dig this hole deeper.

This bubble is going to burst.

Interest rates will go up.

We have got to institute commonsense rules.

We have to go back to a policy where we have rules, pay as

you go.

I was in the state legislature here.

We had a balanced budget.

I think the federal government should move towards a

balanced budget.

We can sure look for some places to cut.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Such as?

>>BETTY CASTOR: We need to go back and look at the Medicare

prescription drug bill.

That sure dug the hole deeper.

That needs to be completely changed.

We need to mandate.

We need to require that we negotiate bulk purchases of drugs

with the pharmaceutical companies.

That would be a start.

We need to look at ways to bring down the administrative

costs in the Medicare system as well as the Medicaid system.

We need to cut out some of the pork barrel.

We need to work in a bipartisan way.

That's what I have done in my career and that's what we need

to do to get this deficit under control.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Martinez, a 422 billion dollar deficit

and yet you are in favor of making all the tax cuts

permanent.

The concord coalition of democrats and republicans said

George Bush nor John Kerry has a realistic economic plan.

How would you balance the budget and still pay for

permatizing the tax cuts you are advocating?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: The worst thing we could do to attempt to

balance the budget is to put a halt to economic growth by my

opponent's proposal of increasing taxes when she goes to

Washington.

We don't need to increase taxes.

When I go to Washington, I will make all of the tax cuts

permanent.

Because, Tim, we have to understand that the key to solving

the deficit problem is fiscal restraint and discretionary

domestic spending and economic growth through the

opportunity of people to keep in more of their own money and

having the opportunity to reinvest it.

One of the people get a tax hike --

>>TIM RUSSERT: Sir, you could eliminate all nondiscretionary

domestic spending and still not balance the budget.

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Understood, because the key to balancing the

budget is going to be the growth of the economy brought

about, which the president began through the tax cuts that

he put in place, and which Ms. Castor tax increases that she

would do are only going to create a problem for small

businesses, not just the rich, by the way.

We're talking about small businesses.

We know she's going to raise taxes.

When we get to Washington, then we'll decide the details of

who are the rich.

In fact, small business people who are not what we would

define as the rich are also going to get that tax increase.

The bottom line is at a time of war, we have got to have

deficit spending in order to continue to keep the engine of

war going because that is what is keeping America safe.

>>TIM RUSSERT: We have just a minute left.

You spent a lot of money in 30-second commercials.

Ms. Castor, I want to give you an opportunity to ask

Mr. Martinez one question and he has 30 seconds to respond

and I'll do likewise for you.

>>BETTY CASTOR: Mr. Martinez, how can you justify continuing

this tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans when we are at

war, when we have not kept faith with our veterans, when we

have young men and women coming back from this war who do

not have health care coverage, how can you look at young

families today and say, we need to be giving tax breaks to

the wealthiest Americans, continue this deficit spending,

how can you justify that policy?

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Ms. Castor, because I understand what makes

America work.

I know what has made this country great through the years.

I know in my own life that I've had the opportunity to live

the American dream, because this is a country where you can

dream it and you can do it.

And the fact is that allowing families to have the kind of

economic prosperity that came about as a result of the tax

cut, you see, you would be criticizing us today for not

creating jobs.

The president's plan created over one and a half million

jobs in the past year, that's because we put in place a tax

cut which created economic opportunity, which created

growth, which put people back to work.

>>TIM RUSSERT: Mr. Martinez, please ask Ms. Castor a

question.

>>MEL MARTINEZ: Ms. Castor, why would you increase taxes on

Americans when in fact your tax increase would include small

business people, not just rich, small business people?

>>BETTY CASTOR: I don't know what you're talking about.

I have no tax proposal out there.

What I think is that we need to come up with a commonsense

approach to addressing the problems of the deficit.

Yeah, I don't like the tax breaks for the wealthiest

Americans because I support middle class tax cuts.

I support the child -- the child care tax credit --

>>TIM RUSSERT: And time is up.

Betty Castor, Mel Martinez, thank you both.

>>BETTY CASTOR: Thank you.

>>TIM RUSSERT: And we thank all of you out there for joining

us.

Special thanks to the Florida NBC affiliates for hosting

tonight's debate.

Election night just 14 days away.

We hope tonight's debate helped you make or reaffirm your

decision.

It's now up to you.

Vote on November 2nd, good night.

>> That does conclude our statewide NBC affiliates debate.

>> A lot of points brought up tonight and I'm sure we'll be

hearing more in the days to come.

But we'll analyze it and have more at 11.

Good night.